33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Greetings Jan On reading my original Post of eighteen or so months ago, and having just found the draft of a reply I prepared for this Post I have realised how dumb I was not to have specifically mentioned something about the 33A in the 33AN box. I had previously read somewhere that the 33A was often packaged in a 33AN box as insufficient 33AN Bailly models had been produced and that it was perfectly normal to find the plain vans in either a 33A or 33AN box, so it is quite possible that neither of mine have been swapped. However, since I wrote my above Post on 2 June 2016, I was successful from the John Kinchen Collection of an unboxed Bailly van. Although slightly chipped, I decided to bid on this model as no other examples were coming up on auction in a far better condition and one that I could afford with the express purpose of obtaining a Bailly model to occupy its correct 33AN box. Here is the dilemma Having received the unboxed 33AN Bailly model I am now undecided as to the best course of action, leave it unboxed or put it in the 33AN box. At the moment and as mentioned in my Post #11 the 33AN box is occupied by a 33A with a yellow back in near mint condition, which you have advised is less common that the orange example I await your esteem response!! Kind regards Bruce H. (150) 20180104/1300/1174

I only have one version of the 33a Simca-Cargo fourgon, and I acquired it many years ago, but it is in wonderful condition. As others have mentioned, it is a shame that the French Meccano operation did not make more versions of this van in different liveries, such as the Guy Vans. I also am showing my 33an Bailly van. Best regards, Terry

Hi Bruce, I think we should make the distinction between a 'correct' box and an 'authentic' box first. In my view an authentic box is the box in which a model is known to have been packed in since coming from shop stock (even if it's 'wrong' because for instance the factory ran out of correct boxes). In my view a correct box is a box which complies with the model's colour scheme, age and related catalogue reference number (even if it is not authentic). The ideal is that a box is both authentic and correct. Hardest to prove is that a box is authentic. Easier it is to make plausible that a box is correct. I am not certain that the 33AN box in which my 33A came when I bought it is authentic, but I am sure it is not correct. I am certain that the 33A box which I bought lateron separately for my 33A is not authentic, but it is correct. I am certain that this 33AN box, which I swapped and deliberatly added much later to my boxless 33AN Bailly is not authentic to this very example, but I am sure it is correct. You may leave things as they are now, and hope (if you cannot prove) that is the authentical situation. Or you may swap boxes and models to obtain the 'correct' situation. The dilemma remains with you, I'm afraid ... Kind regards, Jan

Jan.....Thats a great distinction to make about the boxes, and with Meccano almost always tending to sometimes mix things up a bit, by using older, leftover boxes, etc., it is important to keep this distinction in mind. Its nice to have quite few originally purchased or gifted models, whereby one is assured that the box is authentic......and hopefully correct also! Best regards, Terry

Jan I have taken a little longer to reply than originally intended, as I was interested in seeing discussions from more members instead of the single response that was provided on your comments. I also needed my response to take into consideration the English language and the need to be responsible in not offending you or anyone else. I originally had prepared a lengthy dissertation but following advice I have edited out most of that in case my message became lost in translation. To begin with, unfortunately you were unable to address my question. Nor for that matter, could anyone else. All I had asked is whether I should move a slightly chipped Bailly van into a box that clearly and unambiguously refers to the stock number for that model as evidenced by the following images from the 1958 French Meccano Catalogue, or leave its current occupant, a near mint plain 33A as the occupant of this box. At least I 'thought' it was a relatively simple question. In reality as you were unable to answer my question there was no need for you to have responded in the manner you did unless you felt compelled to correct me in what I was endeavouring to do by your unique definitions of Meccanos boxes. However as one member applauded your rather extraordinary definitions, I must confess I and another well-known Dinky Toys collector found your Post one of the most difficult and incomprehensible if not perplexing statement concerning boxes that we have read. Modern-day usage of the word authentic means it is of undisputed origin, genuine and not a copy or reproduction, which in my mind has no relation to the discussion underway. Every box manufactured by or on behalf of Meccano whether the box contained an error or two or apparently was used for several models does not diminish its genuine or authentic nature. When I wrote of a box being correct that means the box, for all intents and purposes, was manufactured to accommodate a particular model that was originally sold with the sales designation of 33 AN. Whether the same box was later used for a similar model by Meccano at the production end of the original intended model is immaterial. Finally, I could not locate the word boxless in the Oxford Dictionary; I think you meant unboxed. As for authentical, I had also never heard this word used in modern English, until I found reference to it being used in the mid-16th century, but we are now well and truly past that era. Oh, one last comment. I will not be doing anything with my Bailley Van - just leave it unboxed, as French Dinky Toys are really outside my field of interest anyhow. Bruce H. (150) 20180212/0007/1178

Hello Bruce, my comment was just a modest and friendly attempt to think along with you and help you. I'm sorry it apparently did not. Kind regards, Jan

Having a couple with both A and B type cab/chassis units at my disposal now, I can indicate more clearly their differences, which are: - Size of the badge above the grille - Inverted door steps - Position of the lettering underneath (as seen in relation to the fuel tank's raised lines) - Position of the ejection marks underneath (obvious in relation to the rear axle)