660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (195664)

Hi all, there are some references (Force, Ramsay's) to an early version of the Antar Tank Transporter without driver. I have never seen one and I wonder how this is possible when taking into account that the bracket supporting this driver was designed in May 1954, two years before introduction of this model already. Also, since 1954/55 every suitable military model got its driver, why not this one? Could the incidental spotting of such a driverless model regard just one or some flaws? If you have concrete evidence of such a driverless model (preferably a photo) I would be anxious to know!!Kind regards, Jan Werner

Hi Jan I have never seen a Mighty Antar without a driver, sadly Ramsay's is full of inaccuracies - especially in the trade box area which is a speciality of mine. I have sent them additions for this area on more than one occasion and had no reply or additions to what has been published for many years. It is sadly very out of date. I would not take what is published in Ramsey's as a factual representation of the real Dinky world. Dave

Thanks very much Dave, what could I else but expect this confirmation of yours? Uncritical writers copying each other's unconfirmed 'facts'! Kind regards, Jan

Referring back to the discussions on the 660 Tank Transporter and which insignia it should carry I have the answer. I have spoken to DTCA member Major Bev Stevens who served for seven years with the Royal Tank Corps and has first hand experience of the Mighty Antar. There were three variants of the Antar: The first was the Mark I which was a trial vehicle and only about six were produced and these were probably operated by the Royal Armoured Corps. This was the vehicle Dinky based their vehicle on so the Red/Yellow insignia of the early versions is correct. The Mark II is also the Dinky vehicle but this was the production vehicle and was operated by the Royal Army Service Corps. This means that Dinky were correct to change it to the Blue/Yellow insignia. The Mark III has a different body and was not modelled by Dinky. Dinky never made any announcement of this change but I assume it will be on the Assembly Drawing for the 660 Mighty Antar. This drawing is not listed in The Great Book of Dinky Toys so it is possible it does not exist any longer. It looks as if we have unwittingly discovered another enigma from Binns Road. Dave Hi David, This is very interesting. So the Tanks Corp badge should be found on the models with the trailer marked Dinky Toys and possibly onthe early Supertoys. To confirm this, we should make a list of all the tank transporters available with all the possible variations : Marking of the trailer - Dinky Toys Tank transporter 660 - Dinky Supertoys Tank transporter 660 - Dinky Supertoys transporter no ref. number Badge - red / yellow - blue / yellow Detachable trailer yes / no Radiator with or without 'lever' or what ever it is. Driver yes / no Windows yes / no with transformer supports for 908 yes / no By the way, what are these 'supports' called in English ? About the Antar without driver, my information is that it was deleted on the very last items made, the ones with windows but I do not have a picture of that variation.

janwerner wrote: 'Hi all, there are some references (Force, Ramsay's) to an early version of the Antar Tank Transporter without driver. I have never seen one and I wonder how this is possible when taking into account that the bracket supporting this driver was designed in May 1954, two years before introduction of this model already. Also, since 1954/55 every suitable military model got its driver, why not this one? Could the incidental spotting of such a driverless model regard just one or some flaws? If you have concrete evidence of such a driverless model (preferably a photo) I would be anxious to know!! Kind regards, Jan Werner' Jan I realize that this post is a little outdated when the discussion on the Antar first took place several years ago, but the early, or first issue 660 Tank Transporter with the trailer marked 'Dinky Toys' did have a driver incorporated. I have had over the years, three other similar models, and they all had a driver. As for Ramsay's catalogue, the latest issue I have, Edition 14, incorporates all my revisions I had sent to John, deleting any mention of the driverless models. I hope my revision is acceptable! I did not mention the insignia's but it is nice to see Dave's final post on the subject from advice given to him by Major Stevens. Bruce

Hello everybody, having recently read this thread and noticed the reference to the early production models being marked on the underside of the trailer with just 'Dinky Toys' rather than the later 'Dinky Supertoys', I checked my models to discover that I did not have one of these variations, so set about finding one, which surprisingly turned up quite soon, and in very good condition although in a somewhat worn box. Seeing the reference in Ramsays which states that the first casting was only issued in May 1956, I was surprised to find that the inspection stamp in the lid is 'H M 856' (August 1956). I then checked my other yellow-lidded boxed model ('Supertoys' casting) to find that the inspection stamp is '756' (no other characters evident) so July 1956. However, there are two versions of the yellow-lidded boxes: the text on the right-hand side on version (A) is in red within a red-outline, whereas on version the text is in yellow letters printed on a red label which has been pasted-on over the original text. So this is version (A) with the model marked 'Dinky Toys' and box dated August 1956 : and this is version with a 'Dinky Supertoys' model and the lid dated July 1956 : Now, I have assumed (yes, I know) that the earliest box is version (A), and the later print is version - so, my question is this: could the first casting model still have been produced and/or packed in August 1956? It is even more mystifying when I know that my 'Supertoys' marked model is near mint-boxed but packed in July 1956 (and acquired around fifteen years ago from the first owner). Another Dinky mystery! And here's another one: why is it that in compiling this contribution, I get a 'smiley' when I enter text for a capital B?! (now edited out, thanks Jacques!) Still, like the smiley, it makes life interesting, doesn't it? Regards to all, Adrian.

Hi Adrian, very interesting to see that very first casting 'Dinky Toys'. My early box (your 'A however, contains the second state of the die 'Dinky Supertoys', as does (of course) my later blue striped box of November 1956. Then, there was also the difference of transfers used in 1956, making a confusing mix of boxes, castings and finishes within a few months only. Perhaps this confusion and mix is not a surprise, because production numbers of this successful model in 1956 must have been huge, so some overlap of boxes, castings and finishes was almost inevitable, I presume. Some pictures, also including a quote from the General Business Report of the Meccano board of 1956. They really boasted explicitly the new Mighty Antar Tank Transporter. Kind regards, Jan

Adrian, If you type B like this you do not get a smiley. Some forums have a 'Disable smileys' command but this one does not. Jacques.

55Zephyr wrote: 'Hello everybody, having recently read this thread and noticed the reference to the early production models being marked on the underside of the trailer with just 'Dinky Toys' rather than the later 'Dinky Supertoys', I checked my models to discover that I did not have one of these variations, so set about finding one, which surprisingly turned up quite soon, and in very good condition although in a somewhat worn box. Seeing the reference in Ramsays which states that the first casting was only issued in May 1956, I was surprised to find that the inspection stamp in the lid is 'H M 856' (August 1956). I then checked my other yellow-lidded boxed model ('Supertoys' casting) to find that the inspection stamp is '756' (no other characters evident) so July 1956. However, there are two versions of the yellow-lidded boxes: the text on the right-hand side on version (A) is in red within a red-outline, whereas on version ( the text is in yellow letters reversed out of a red block. Now, I have assumed (yes, I know) that the earliest box is version (A), and the later print is version ( - so, my question is this: could the first casting model still have been produced and/or packed in August 1956? It is even more mystifying when I know that my 'Supertoys' marked model is near mint-boxed but packed in July 1956 (and acquired around fifteen years ago from the first owner). Another Dinky mystery! And here's another one: why is it that in compiling this contribution, I get a 'smiley' when I enter text for a capital B?! Still, like the smiley, it makes life interesting, doesn't it? Regards to all, Adrian.' Hello Adrian I am afraid it was me who worked closely with John Ramsay in 2005 to produce the list of 660 Tank Transports that appears in his catalogue from that year onwards! I had previously and right up to 2007, worried the life out of countless eBay sellers, traditional UK auction houses, and swap-meets here in Brisbane seeking the casting and inspection stamp data, that resulted in the final table of models. In all those years, I never came across a Tank Transporter with DINKY TOYS cast under the trailer with a date later than May 1956, so your box is intriguing. Any chance of you posting a picture of the inspection stamp? I know for a fact that a lot of inspectors, mostly ladies on the floor, mixed up the numerals when they made up their rubber stamps. The yellow lidded DINKY TOYS box, overprinted DINKY SUPERTOYS was produced up to DECEMBER 1956, with the familiar blue-striped box being introduced as from NOVEMBER 1956. So for two months, both box styles were being used until the last of the yellow-lidded boxes had been despatched. There were no 660 Tank Transporters manufactured during September 1956, unless someone can produce a box that contradicts this! The greatest numbers were during May and June which is understandable. There were occasions when Meccano had no stock of the Tank Transporter such as in June 1960 according to the agent's Order Form for that month. I first became fascinated with the early Dinky Toys Tank Transporter through a dear Dutch friend. Jos van B. who brought this variation to my attention and naturally I had to have one! Over the years, I have owned 26 Tank Transporters, some unboxed but mostly boxed. These have been culled to just seven boxed examples now; the first two in yellow lidded boxes, the next without windows in a blue striped box, then an example with windows, and the last issue with windows and detachable trailer. (Yes I know that only totals six - the seventh is an additional last example.) Finally, check out how some folk cataloguing the 660 are completely confused with the yellow-lidded boxes: Lot 2596 Vectis sale 12 July 2012. I wrote to Vectis prior to the auction advising them of the error, and this is the reply I received from the cataloguer in question: 'This box type was issued after the blue & white striped lid box and this is the later issue model with detachable trailer which is more sought after hence the higher auction estimate.' Kind regards Bruce

Wow, did you ever play with your Dinky Toys, Terry? Look at mine, as old as yours, from December 1956: The tyres are almost smooth, caused by many years of driving, hauling and fighting! And probably the third layer of new paint ... Kind regards, Jan

Jan Yes, I did play with most of my Dinky's as a youngster, but carefully. For some strange reason, at a young age I learned to take care of things, and not damage them. My Antar definitely has some wear, and the spare tire has come loose, but it does still wear its original paint. I am probably more amazed that I managed to save most of the original boxes from 55 years ago! But that is pretty neat that you and I both got our Antar transporters at the same time so long ago. Regards,Terry

With reference to the driver versus no driver in the 660 tank transporter. I have always considered that if the model was released with a driver, it always had one, except late issues of the 688 Field Artillery Tractor. Others had it added. Having said that, I have just realised that my recently purchased 660 'DINKY TOYS' base does not have a driver fitted nor does it have the bracket. Unfortunately I do not have a suitable camera to illustrate the point, so the attached will have to do ! Ron F.