505 and 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains (1952-64)

Hello Terry Many thanks for your kind words. It provides me with untold satisfaction when I can add something to the story of Dinky Toys from material I have saved over many, many years. That is why I keep telling The Better Half never throw anything out as it just might come in handy one of these days! It does appear that the First Type Foden Flat Truck with Chains saw very limited production with most of these in particular the maroon version going overseas. I think the time frame is possibly October 1951 to May 1952, the latter date based on a universal catalogue with the print run of 13/552/30, a copy of which I have that has the name of the Meccano dealer printed on the rear cover. The company was Lucas's (Hobbies) Ltd, 17 Houghton Street, Liverpool, just around the corner from Meccano - actually almost in the city centre with the area having undergone tremendous changes since the 1950's. Still it is interesting that a non-UK catalogue was printed for a Liverpool dealer and this catalogue shows the 505 Second Series in green on page 16 and with no notation stating the model will be available shortly, one can assume that the model was in fact available as early as May 1952. The 503 Foden Flat Truck with Tailboard was available in May 1952 based on a factory inspection stamp on one example, so with the flat tray with chains and posts being universal, I can see no reason why any delay would occur with releasing the updated version of the Chain Lorry at the same time. Kind regards Bruce (150)201600502/917/1358

Hi Bruce, thanks for your familiar extensive documentary support! All your additional documentary evidence supports my suspicion that the production time span of the first type chain lorry should be shifted to about one quarter of a year earlier indeed, contrary to all early 1952 introduction references in literature. This complies with the unchanged use of the older Dinky Toys hubs on first types (and the premature incorrect representation of a second type with those Dinky Toys hubs in the May 1952 catalogue). Moreover, it would imply that the Dinky Toys brand name appeared slightly earlier on the Supertoys boxes than supposed before. Rob, thanks for the picture of your first type marvels! However, I thought they deserve a slightly better photographic treatment, so, please, forgive some superficial photoshopping correction. Kind regards, Jan

Hello Jan While checking through my original Forum drafts, I found the following on the 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains that I prepared back in March, and I think I never got around to posting it! At least a fairly extensive search has failed to reveal its existence in the Forum. Here it is! I refer you to comments #18-21 that can be found in the Auction Catalogue Descriptions topic. You are perfectly right with there being a second colour scheme of blue and grey for the 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains. It was my original intention to write only a little about the blue and grey version, and then the deeper I delved, the more confusing this issue reached and the longer this story became! In reality, I have always considered the 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains in mid blue and grey as an accidental issue rather than a very limited normal issue judging on the number of examples seen in recent years. Using Vectis Auctions as a barometer of its availability, since 1996 a total of only six have passed through their hands of which one with yellow Supertoys hubs has made it twice, so in effect, only five models in 20 years. It is interesting that the first example appeared in Vectis in 2008, and according to the 11th Edition of Ramsays British Diecast Model Toys Catalogue published in October 2005, the first one seen was one that sold through eBay in 2004. In fact, I observed another example without its box that was also sold through eBay in January 2005 and the photographs below are of that model. (Whether this is the same model referred to by Ramsay I have no idea.) Add this example to the other six and that brings the total to only seven in eleven years an extra-ordinarily small number. Even if one were to triple the number of blue and grey models seen by taking into consideration other auction houses and swap meets that is only 21 models in 20 years. One then has to ask the obvious question How come? Then the next question, Where have these models been before 2004? hibernating?!!' Hopefully I may be able to provide an answer, if not, at least the opening of a decent, thought-provoking discussion! When one checks Richardsons bible The Great Book on Dinky Toys this colour scheme does not rate a mention, although the bible does contain many inaccuracies, such as the statement that the 905 in red and grey was the only Foden Chain Lorry of all three colour schemes (maroon, green and red) that were packaged in boxes marked Dinky Supertoys. This statement is incorrect as both the maroon and green versions were packaged in a DINKY SUPERTOYS box as shown with the example below having a red colour end spot. And especially the green version that has been part of my collection for many, many years, since 1957: The 2nd Series Foden Flat Truck with Chains virtually continued the colour schemes established by the First Series, maroon and green, with the major difference with the Second Series in that both colours had an almost identical production run although as with the First Series, the green version is more common than the maroon. The last example seen of the 905 in maroon with red hubs has been one quality inspected in July 1956. By at least August 1956 it can be assumed that Meccano had decided to limit the colour choice for the Foden goods-carrying range to a single colour with dark green winning for the 905 unless further maroon examples can be found with later quality inspection dates. This change to a single colour had been previously carried out firstly with the 902 Flat Truck by December 1953 followed by the 903 Flat Truck with Tailboard by March 1954 (until July 1956 when the colour of the back was changed and then in July 1957 when the dark to violet-blue was changed to a deep blue with fawn back, but still basically a single colour scheme) and finally the 901 Diesel 8-Wheel Wagon in June 1954. The last green 905 located was inspected in March 1957. Apparently, a decision was made in about March or April 1957 that the 905 needed brightening up. The UK catalogue for 1957 with a print date of June 1957, is a possible indicator when the change of colour occurred as the picture of the 905 is of the red and grey version. Allowing for artwork etc associated with that catalogue, one can assume that work preparing this catalogue started in May, probably earlier. The earliest inspection stamp I have found for the red and grey version has been July 1957. As the box is basically identical to the previous box, with the only noticeable change apart from the artwork and colour rendition of the model being from block to italic for DINKY SUPERTOYS, (there are other minor changes as well) with the notation on the side panel being retained should at some point in the future another colour be introduced. The above may be an example of a) the seller obtaining any box in order to achieve a better price or b) the first examples of the red and grey version were packaged in boxes originally intended for the green version. This may not necessarily be correct as only these two have been seen over the past 20 years, hardly confirming b) as a possibility. Only a quality inspection stamp can ascertain if b) is correct! I would opt for a) in this case. (I had tried downloading an image of another example, and although its size was comparable to the above image, the file could not be downloaded as it was too large! So far so good! But what about the colour blue with grey back? Without concrete evidence such as a quality inspection stamp or even a price that can be seen on the boxes for those five sold through Vectis all we have at present is pure conjecture as to when this scheme was used. The first possible scenario could be a small trial run of mid blue and grey back being carried out in or around April-May 1957. It was then considered the base colour blue was too similar to the 903 tailboard particularly after July 1957 when its shade of blue would be changed, so that scheme was rejected and a decision was then made to make the colour red and grey. The similarity between the red selected and the 901 would have been inconsequential as the 901 was about to be withdrawn. However, if it was a trial issue, then the next question would be: Why are the five known boxed examples packaged in a box showing the red and grey version which would indicate the red and grey had already been selected? The second possible explanation is a brief run was made using excess blue paint that had been prepared for the tractor unit of the 982 Pullmore Car Transporter. This models days were numbered when the 983, 984, 985 combination arrived in July 1958. The 982 soldiered on until at least January 1963 (listed in a price leaflet, with it still being included in the October December 1962 Dealer Order Form) before it was finally deleted. It is therefore a possibility that when production ceased for the 982, excess paint was still available for this model, so a decision was made to use it up on a short run of 905s. Although for this scenario to have taken place does seems a little implausible as excess paint could still have been used on several other Dinky Toys in production during this period that carried a similar blue, the 230 Talbot-Lago Racing Car and 179 side flash for the Studebaker President Sedan, or even the upper colour for the 175 Hillman Minx, although I do not know the paint number for the blue in question. The third and most creditable scenario brings in the 903 with Tailboard. The similarity of the blue of the last issue of the 903 and of the 905 cannot be discounted, (see the photos below) <br /> <br /> But when exactly was the 903 in mid blue produced as this may be a good indicator as to when the 905 in blue and grey was produced? Going on quality inspection stamps seen so far, the 903 in mid blue and fawn back was quality inspected in July 1956, September 1956, January, February, March and December 1958. Quite a widespread period, but perhaps the models in July and September 1956 can be discounted as these were during production of the maroon (to July 1956) and green until March 1957 in the older style box with block printing for DINKY SUPERTOYS a possible instance of someone obtaining a box just to add value to the blue and fawn 903 Tailboard model they were selling. This then leaves January to March and December 1958 as the most likely time-frame. I think that at some stage, with both the 903 and 905 being in production simultaneously a surplus of 903 blue body-chassis and an under-supply of the tailboard together with an over-supply of the 905 flat trays with chains, it was decided to marry the 905 flat tray with chains to the blue body-chassis of the 903 just to complete the production demand. There may have been an extremely small inconsequential quantity involved which would not have created any real problems, thus accounting for how few have been seen in recent years. This scenario may have even been repeated on several occasions. Of the three suggestions above, I would lean towards the last, a run during the production of the mid-blue 903 with Tailboard, as the colours are, for all intents and purposes, identical. All this conjecture would be unnecessary had Vectis included the quality inspection details inside the boxes for those five models it has sold providing of course box and model have never been separated and more importantly that the boxes did in fact contain a quality inspection stamp! Hopefully we will be able to obtain quality inspection stamps that in time will provide an answer to the time frame. Still, after all this prattle, it does not alter the fact that the blue and grey version was more than likely just an accidental issue but still worthy of a place in the story of the Foden Flat Truck with Chains. At this point, I still have not answered my second question, Where have these models been before 2004? Finally, I am including those images of my red and grey example that I included in the Auction Catalogue Descriptions topic. Kind regards Bruce (150) 20161310/1004/2355

Thank you, Bruce, for your fine explanation, especially as colours is concerned. The 1957 Amended Colours List makes the impression that both colours, maroon and green, were discontinued at the same time (the list is of 5 February 1957) and succeeded immediately by the red and grey one, but that may be official policy, practice being slightly different, and we know that implementation of the contents of lists and drawings like this may often have taken place either before or some time after the approval date of those documents. Kind regards, Jan

Bruce---Another wonderful study of a Dinky Toy model and its long history.....very nicely done! And your study of the boxes as well as sales literature certainly help provide much more insight as to what went on and when. The Chain Lorry has always had a special fascination for me....I suppose those neat chains made it special. Here in the states, I have never seen anything like that, so it was a novelty for kids here. And by the way, how do you get your number of posts, etc, to show below your name? I went back to the home page, and did not see any instructions on how to do that. Best regards, Terry

HAPPY EASTER FOR ALL MEMBERS REGARDS LUIS ROSSI

Thank you Luis, and Felices Pascuas/ Buona Pasqua to you.