505 and 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains (1952-64)

Transfered from the thread 'New arrivals'.Normally the posts here involve nice pristine Dinky Toys, but here is one I recently acquired which obviously falls into the 'play worn' category. It is an example of the New Zealand 'Number Eight' mentality (referring to the 8 gauge fencing wire that has been used for a myriad of repairs and inventions here). The chain posts are indeed split pins. Actually I only bought it for the box at a very reasonable price. There is one original post. I have not seen any mention before in reference to the chain posts where the hole in the top had been enlarged (twice I think) in its lifespan.Is it on the drawings ?Ron

Hi Ron, The reference to the enlarged stanchion holes is on drawing 12197 which can be found on the Encyclopaedia on the page for 505 Foden flat truck with chains. As the change of the hole

Nice Foden Ron, You're right the box is a winner, I still need one showing the 1st cab type, it always intrigued me that this box shows the rear bed in a totally different shade from the cab, that would have made a truly lovely 1st type chain lorry if it had been made. Chris Warr.

Hi Chris Warr, I don't think the colour of the deck on the 505/2 is a different shade - just my photographic inexperience with lighting. I have done some work on the toy and swapped the back for one I bought with a box (and wrong chassis) from a New Zealand auction a while back, so both boxes have been found in New Zealand. It is more play worn that the first one but authentic for the first issue of 505/2 with dimpled stanchion ends. Besides the holes had been roughly drilled out and wondered a bit from their correct position. At least it gives me some chain for spares. I wonder why the box illustration has the model facing to the right whereas most others face left. This carries over to the 505/2 second cab box as well. At the risk of getting David Cooke excited again, here is the photo of the two boxes and the 505/2 as it is with a 'new' back. The name on it is Master David Cook (no 'e'!).

Hi all, the recent happy acquisition of an all maroon early second type 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains (ill.1) made me grab together some pieces of information, text and pictures, which may contribute to the useful contents of this thread. Nowadays the seller of a model acquired is rarely the first owner anymore and therefore the initial provenance is mostly rather obscure. This one, however, comes from a Meccano Sales Representative, who, in his turn, bought it from one of his clients stock over forty years ago. Like the rest of his collection, it had not left its box ever since, lacking space for decent display (he regretted that very much having seen its present presentation in my displays). After some cleaning the model emerged bright and quite near mint. The box is very good to excellent, without any structural damage. Apparently storage was not dry enough, because there is some slight corrosion to the model and the staples of the box are rusty. The quality control stamp (shown below) seems to be H6 3 (ill. 2, 3). In September 1952, some half a year only after the introduction of this model of a Foden chain truck, the first type cab/chassis unit (Foden DG series) was replaced already by this second type, a model of the Foden FG6/15 with S18 cab. Of both versions the maroon chain truck is less familiar than the one finished in green, especially the first type. The all maroon 505 in its turn is slightly less common than its green counterpart. Although useless, parallel with the introduction of the chain truck, the other flat trucks, with and without tailboard (502 and 503), also got the tiny holes in the upright board behind the cabin, for attachment of the chain ends (ill. 4). This demonstrates that all of these loading platforms were basically produced with the same mould, adjusted for the specific models. Many of the factory drawings for the Fodens could be shared for this model. The chain posts and the chain, however, were designs of their own, represented by the jobs no. 12197 (ill. 5) and no. 12198 (ill. 6) respectively and the assembly 12196(A) (drawing not known at present) for the complete model was individual. No. 12198 shows that a subcontractor, Bacco, Birmingham Associated Chain Co. Ltd., supplied Meccano with the chains. Earliest chain lorries, both 1st and 2nd type, have dimpled instead of the later rounded bases of the lugs underneath the chain posts. Instead of four clips retaining the bogie wheel axles in front of the first type, the second type uses only two, for the front axle only. The rear pair of wheel axles use the new cast in axle holes (instead of the previous four clips over there, ill. 7). Although 1952 is the year of official introduction, the first type chain lorry (ill. was advertised already in the Dutch and US catalogues in 1951 (ill. 9). I cannot confirm this for the UK 1951catalogue because I havent got one and no one has uploaded a copy to the website documents area yet. The UK catalogue of May 1952 already shows the second type chain lorry (in colour, green), as do the Dutch and USA catalogues (ill. 10), in black and white. The hubs for the first type chain lorries were always ridged, the second type were always grooved Supertoys hubs. The UK catalogue of May 1952, however, shows the second type with ridged hubs (ill. 11). As far as Im aware the cast in Dinky Supertoys name, underneath, survived for all issues. The early boxes for 505 (50505), with orange/black printed label pasted on the blue box lid, both first and second type, only show the brand name Dinky Toys (1952, the year of introduction, was exactly the year that the Dinky Supertoys name was dropped from the boxes). In 1954 the blue striped boxes were introduced with the new number 905 but still with the Dinky Toys name only. This became Dinky Supertoys in straight up letters end 1955/early 1956 (ill. 12). Whatever the contents, the illustration shows the green one only, a colour roundel sticker indicating the contents colour. About 1954, besides being renumbered 905, the previously all maroon version had its wheels painted red (ill. 13), giving this rather gloomy finished model a brighter appearance (the same goes for the other maroon models, for instance the British Railways vehicles Hindle Smart Electric Lorry and the Horse Box, the Luxury Coach etc., ill. 14). The green one, with its slightly lighter green wheel hubs, remained unchanged. The black round treaded tyres, were replaced by blocked ones. Most but not all examples of the chain lorry show the 20 roundel on the left rear mudguard. This did not show up anymore on the later red/grey issue, because its introduction coincided with the deletion of that sign (ill. 15). Memo 20645, Amended Colour Schemes of 7 February 1957, testifies to the discontinuation of the maroon and green issues, in favour of the new duo tone finish in place of present two colour schemes(ill. 16, 17). A rivet replaced the screw at the rear (ill. 17), so swapping of cabin/chassis and loading platform producing rare fakes became virtually impossible (ill. 18). The blue striped box was adapted with the correct illustration and the new contemporary italic lettering of the brand name. An unusual and rare exception is the blue/grey finish (ill. 19, Vectis Auctions). The red/grey issue was discontinued in 1964, being the last of the famous Foden series models to leave the Dinky Toys range, even fitted with red plastic hubs in the end (ill. 20). Examples with windows, as suggested by the 1963 catalogue illustration, are not known (ill. 21). As always, corrections and additions welcome! Kind regards, Jan Some useful articles: Graham Bridges, First series Foden trucks 1947-1952. In: Classic Toys 1/1 (Aug/Sept 1994). Graham Bridges & Stewart Orr, Second series Foden Trucks part 2. In: Classic Toys 1/3 (Jan/Feb 1995). Clive Unsworth, Dinky Toys 1st series Fodens Part 1. In: Model Collector 29/12 (Dec 2014). Clive Unsworth, Dinky Toys 2nd series Fodens Part 2. In: Model Collector 29/13 (Christmas 2014).














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Hi Jan, Wonderfull article on a wonderfull Foden. Thanks! Kind regards, Rob

Jan----Another most wonderful article on a very popular Dinky Supertoys. I remember being a youngster and having never seen a 'chain lorry' here in the US, was somewhat in wonder with it. Years later I finally got my own copy, and it has been a Foden favorite even since. Since you provided so much history, along with very nice photography, I will only add some more details on the first model. As you mentioned, this was only made for a short period, starting in early 1952 and was superceded by the newer model in September of that year. Some time ago, I was able to acquire an example of this early model, and it also happens to be in green, the same color of my later example, so the two make an interesting comparison. You will notice that my example has been dropped at some point in time, resulting in the posts on the right side being bent....and I have heard from several experts not to try and straighten them...they will break! I have included some photos below, showing the two of them together. There is also a photo of the underside of both of them, to show just how very different the chassis was. The early version has the thinner axles, all of which are mounted via sheet metal clips to the chassis. And notice that there is a raised area, where the rear wheels are located, to get the axles to the proper height. This raised area was not needed when the newer version used diecast lugs to retain the axles. The underside also clearly shows that the bottoms of the chain posts are indeed dimpled, as was the case until later. Moving to the exterior views, the early model came with the ridged wheels, and of course, the cab is completely different in design and also has the distinctive colored 'flash' added. All in all, a most interesting and attractive model!Best regards, Terry

Thanks, Terry, for the first type addition and the comparison. If I'm not mistaken Rob does have both the maroon and the green ones in great condition, don't you, Rob? With us, in NL, these remarkable eight-wheel lorries, were as 'exotic' - so exciting - as with you in the US! Kind regards, Jan

Jan What a detailed examination of the 505/905 Foden Chain Lorry! I heartily applaud your most detailed and thorough treatise of the Foden Flat Truck with Chains. When you wrote: Although 1952 is the year of official introduction, the first type chain lorry (ill. was advertised already in the Dutch and US catalogues in 1951 (ill. 9). I cannot confirm this for the UK 1951catalogue because I havent got one and no one has uploaded a copy to the website documents area yet. The UK catalogue of May 1952 already shows the second type chain lorry (in colour, green), as do the Dutch and USA catalogues (ill. 10), in black and white. The hubs for the first type chain lorries were always ridged, the second type were always grooved Supertoys hubs. The UK catalogue of May 1952, however, shows the second type with ridged hubs (ill. 11). I also do not have a 1951 UK Dinky Toys catalogue, but I do have something that does help to confirm when the Foden Flat Truck with Chains was released. Pictured below is one page of a 3-fold Meccano Toys of Quality leaflet with a print date of October 1951 (16/1051/25) showing the 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains priced at 9/11. The leaflet issued in June 1951 does not contain this model. I am uncertain whether price leaflets were issued for the period July to September 1951. On 6 September 1997, Vectis Auctions at the Civic Hall, London Road, Guildford, Surrey, auctioned two 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains, one in green and the other maroon. The maroon example, Lot 901 sold for 470 and the green example in superb A to A+ condition Lot 900 fetched 1600. This lot had the original date of purchase of November 1951 added in ink to the base of the box. Also pictured below is the description of both models from the Vectis catalogue (now this is how Dinky Toys auction descriptions SHOULD be written!) together with an image of the model itself with apologies for the quality. The September 1997 auction was the fifth under the new ownership of Bryan Goodall. Anyway, the above does confirm that the 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains was issue in 1951, at least by October. Kind regards Bruce (150) 20160424/915/0325

Bruce----Always nice to add more information, and your store of old price sheets, etc, is amazing and almost always adds important info to our knowledge base. From everything we can find/see, it appears that the first type Foden Flat Truck with Chains was possibly made for only 8-9 months. I am glad that I was able to find one in pretty good condition, as they do not come up very often. Best regards, Terry

Hello Jan, Yes, I have both first types 505's in virtually mint condition. My feeling is that the maroon version is the most difficult to find in this condition. I have seen only one or two others. It took my some time and the help of a friend who travelled to the UK almost weekly to find it. (Mind you, his travels were not centered around finding one Dinky Toy for me !!). Kind regards, Rob

JanFurther to my recent Post, I concentrated on the UK catalogues and leaflets to provide a more accurate time frame when the 505 became available. There was however a 1951 catalogue issued for Australia with the print code of 5/451/25, April 1951. (An image of the front and rear covers is below.) Although the 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains makes a pictorial appearance in this catalogue does not mean the 505 was issued in April 1951. Rather this is yet another case of Meccanos forward planning for its export markets. Australia was roughly 3 months sailing from the UK with most vessels departing from Tilbury on the Thames with less frequent sailings from Southampton. So, with a print run in April 1951 add two to three weeks in transit within the UK, then add a further 3 months, plus another two weeks in transit on the arrival of the carton containing the 25000 catalogues, and no doubt these would have been incorporated within E G Page & Co (Sales) Pty Ltd usual orders for all the Meccano products, then the time frame could have been well over four, most likely five months, which would bring the catalogues on the shelves of the various Meccano dealers in Australia in about September or early October. There may have been a sales embargo until the 505 models had arrived.This last page is interesting in that the five other models listed with the 505 as 'RECENT ADDITIONS TO THE DINKY TOYS RANGE' all went on sale in the UK in April 1951. (I received my Rover and Austin Atlantic for Christmas 1951.) So, is it really possible that all these were shipped in time including the 505 for them to be on hand when the catalogue became available in Australia? Perhaps the maroon version was the only colour available to be sent to Australia ahead of the UK market which no doubt went out with other exported models to the Far East, especially Singapore and Hong Kong. This would then explain the availability of the maroon version being greater in the Far East including Australia than in the UK.With the Australian price of 16/6, I can fully understand why I never received a 505!As always, speculation and theories will continue unabated now and into the future!Kind regardsBruce (150)201600502/916/1206