25p and 251 Aveling Barford Diesel Roller (1948-63)

Greetings everybody, to pick up the discussion about colour shades of the green model, so far I have only seen three distinct shades of the green 25P-251 roller (early Dark green, standard Light green, and the later Apple (or is it Lime?) green. As a keen collector of Trade Boxes, I often find an empty box and then look for enough models in suitable condition to complete the box - those of you who do likewise will know that there are subtle shade variations in any given 'standard' Dinky colour which are not picked up in photography, so quite often you end up with four (or six etc.) models of slightly differing shade. However, I have been lucky enough to find four near identical models to complete my 25P box: If you have just read my earlier post in 'Photography Specials' about an orange 25P listed on eBay recently as a 'Buy-Now', you will have seen the only picture which accompanied the listing, which is now added at the foot of this submission. I am pleased to say that my hours of trawling through thousands of listings was finally rewarded with what I consider to be a 'bargain'. Although the picture in the listing was rather murky, after a few minutes research I decided that it was worth the chance for the asking price and committed to purchase the model, which arrived a few days ago: and although it has a few paint small chips, after a half-hour of patient cleaning, it looks quite presentable: My research into this colour variation produced only one reference (there is no mention of it in Richardsons GBODT) - Ramsays it shows it as model 25P with a value of 150 to 200. However, I do recall a reference to this model by Keith Harvie - but I have been unable to access KH's Dinky website which seems to be no longer operating. Nevertheless, I did find a copy of his description, which I believe accompanied the three-model picture added to this thread previously by Jose (latindinkyfan09) in July 2010. It reads: 'Very rare Dinky Toys 25P Aveling-Barford diesel roller in all-over orange (a factory colour sample) in very near mint condition (slight marks), an original colour sample from the Meccano factory, in my collection for very many years and the only one I know of'. If it was for sale, I would love to know how much he was asking for it! Well, thats not quite right, because Vectis sold one in 2000, admittedly in only fair condition with considerable wear and chipping, for 180 - and now my model has turned up. But there the references end, because I have been unable to find any further evidence of the existence of any more models finished in orange. However, while examining my examples of this model for photography, I realised that over the fifteen years or so of production, there is a small difference in the height of the canopy (roof), which is one of those details which you are aware of but never really notice until something triggers examination: Then I started to wonder if the low-roof version was a later modification, as all the Apple-green models I have seen have the low roof and 'mirror-gloss' baseplates, so after 1959 - but the theory doesn't work, because the orange model which also has the lower roof has an early 'Brunofix' base which was used around 1953. From left to right, we have a Light green model (from the 25P Trade box datestamped 1953), then another Light green model with 'mirror-gloss' base, then the orange model with Brunofix base and low roof, and on the right the Apple-green version also with 'mirror-gloss' base and low roof. Finally, here is a picture of all my 25P-251 models - almost enough to start up a Diesel Roller hire business! Those of you with 'Eagle-eyes' will have spotted that one roller isn't in 100% perfect operating condition, although the driver seems rather oblivious to the problem - I will have to have a word with the yard mechanics and get them to look at that leftside rear roller - it definitely won't hold any water ballast (surely not a 'blowout'?). The Quality-Control girls must have been distracted from their job when this one went along the line! I bought it several years ago and both model and box are in near-perfect condition, so the shopkeeper probably intended to return it to Meccano but never got round to it. Finally, this is the picture which accompanied the eBay 'Buy-Now' listing 171721954995 - was it a good deal?: The only colour model which I do not yet have is the early 'Dark green' version with the insignia above the front wheel pivot painted red - there are several around, but other than Jan's excellent model, I have not yet seen one good enough! Hope you find this of interest. Regards to everybody, Adrian.

Wonderful mate! One that is very much rarer than the 150 - 200 price guide suggests I think, I don't recall ever seeing one. Very nice condition too. Congratulations on finding something worth while on Ebay! Chris Warr.

That is a real beauty for such a rarity, Adrian. Congratulations! Kind regards, Jan

Adrian, Of course you post is interesting. There are possibly two more colour variations : The dark green promotionnal which was on Keth Harvie's picture posted by Jos (see below) and possibly an army green one part of the SADF lot but although I have had some information about it, I have never seen one. There is a possibility that the promotionnal model was of the first run and made for and at the expanses of Aveling Barford Ltd. For the records, it would be interesting to know the accurate height of both high and low models. Mine, the standard light green one is 63 mm high at the top of the front canopy rods. It must be noted that the shape of the canopy rods is very different on the high and low models.

Hello Adrian: Your Aveling Barford Steam Roller is perfectly authentic and a great buy, because of its rarity. It was a promotional model with logo decals which I first saw in the UK 20 years ago in a small antique shop in the Costwolds. It was mint and the owner wanted 60 GBPs for it. As it was a high price for me, I immediately called Mike Richardson to verify its authenticity--remember then, no internet nor cell phones--and he told me 'it was probably a repaint as it was never issued by the factory...' Unfortunately, Mike Richardson played by the book, and what was not in the Liverpool records, was not a factory original to him...not sure if there was ever a modification of the drawings of the toy. In any case, even if it was never tampered with and I had a good feeling of it, I did not purchase it. Later I tried to find the store to no avail. It was surely a promotional for the firm, probably not many made. Congratulations on your buy! Sooner or later a mint example with its promotional box will appear... Regards to all, Jose.

Hello Adrian I would like to join the chorus from Chris, Jan, Jacques and Jose to congratulate you on a fine acquisition. I saw that model as I too scroll through all the new stuff on eBay, but not as frequently as I did years ago. I saw this unique orange Aveling Barford, and added it to my watch list for later checking and possible bidding. Well, the brain sure isn't what it used to be, and I forgot to even check my watch list! Add that to four more auctions I was desperate to bid on in January, and I have a serious problem. (Perhaps if one were to shine a torch in one ear, one would be blinded by the light coming out of the other!! :laugh: :laugh: :blush: ) I am glad though that you won the auction, as it certainly has added to your fine collection of Aveling Barford Rollers! Had I participated and won it, it would have been just another curiosity, not to mention the way eBay is set up these days, one does not know who's one's competitor is, which in some ways is a little sad. I am glad that you are back on deck, and I look forward to your next email filling in all the latest details. Take care and stay well. Kind regards Bruce (150) #517

Here's another light green color sold recently on eBay too. it's a bit chipped, but it shows the red logo (faded) on the front. See item No. 271785977539.

In fact this funny picture was destined to be included in the Dinky Toys Photography Specials thread, but is deserves a place in this high activity Aveling Barford Diesel Roller thread as well! Kind regards, Jan

Greetings everybody, thank you all (Chris first) for your comments which are much appreciated. Like most dedicated collectors, my collecting is not profit-motivated, but sometimes it is good to obtain a scarce item without having to pay 'the earth' for it - as Jan mentioned, it is easy to get carried away and later on, regret paying too much - so this purchase was one of my better ones. Jan, I really like your 'funny' picture and certainly think it deserves it's place in this thread. Amazing what you can do with mirrors! Jacques - I have measured the difference in heights to the top edge of the two casting 'pips' on the front centre of the canopy: the 'high' roof height is 64.5mm, and the 'low' roof is 59.5mm - the 5mm difference is accounted for, as you say, by the angle of the bend in the wire canopy supports. Jose - your picture of KH's three models reminded me that I had seen this on KH's website a few years ago, but I had forgotten about the dark green version with decals on the body and canopy sides - I presume this was the one that you saw in the UK 20 years ago? Most of us can recall occasions when we let a particular model slip by and years later, really regret not taking the opportunity - I wonder what happened to that model? Despite what Mike Richardson told you, my feeling is that it could have been a sample made up for Aveling-Barford and decorated with paper labels rather than decals, much the same as my theory for the 141 'Lightning Fasteners' Vauxhall Victor Estate in my post on that model. If so, there would probably have been only a few sample models made up, whereas if it had proceeded as a company promotional, surely a greater number would have been produced, and accordingly more would have survived? Either way, I can understand your feelings! In much the same way, I wonder how many all-orange examples were produced, surely not too many. Bruce - thanks for your comments, and I apologise for beating you to the draw on this model. I hope you were successful with your other auction bids - my wife has been telling me for years that I have a serious problem! Yes, it is a pity that eBay has become so secretive that one doesn't know the identity of other bidders - however, I am glad that this model wasn't snapped up by a dealer and relisted at some exhorbitant price purely for profit. I used to buy models from a number of dealers in the UK but have had issues with a couple of them who steadfastly refuse to add pictures of the undersides or bases in their listings, despite my pleas to them to do so (RL and AC please take note!) because often the base detail makes the difference to a variation collector. Kind regards to all, Adrian (141)

Good evening Adrian: Thanks for your kind words to everyone involved in this thread. Actually, the one I saw was orange, similar to the one you recently purchased; and it had logos on the sides of the AB company, as well as on the nose. Yes, it still bites me not buying that model; including trying later to find the shop to no avail. In any case, I learned my lesson. If you think that a specific toy is rare or scarce and you can buy it, do it! Happily, I did find a few which all happened to be unique models of which I'm proud of and that helped the research on Dinky toys advance. Such as what many other members of the DTCA are doing. And what this forum is all about. And as they say, keep on collecting! Best regards, Jose.

Hello everyone. The Aveling Barford that arrived this morning is a last issue because it has a small rear hook. Comparing with its brother, already in my cabinet, it has a different shade of green . Best regards Richard

Hello Richard, fine new acquisitions you scored! In my opinion the small hooks are the early ones, used until 1952, followed by the larger ones. Also, the darkest green examples are the earliest ones. Remarkable to see that the red dot on the nose (representing Aveling Barford's 'Invicta' coat of arms), mostly applied on the darker ones, also appears on your brighter green one. I wonder when your cabinets will collaps under the countless new additions of yours Kind regards, Jan