192 De Soto Fireflite (1959 -63)

Hi Richard, I think that if your Fireflite with suspension was delivered in a box without the words 'with suspension' it is because it is an early issue with suspension and that there were some old boxes left at the factory1

Bruce--A belated thank you for such a wonderful post on both the history of Chrysler, and Walter Pl Chrylser himself, surely one of the more interesting giants of the automotive industry in the twentieth century. Meccano certainly had a long and productive relationship with the Chrysler Corporation, and I certainly enjoyed many of their cars while growing up. I particularly like the the late 1950's models that featured the 'Forward Look', by Virgil Exener. To me, they were far ahead of the still boxy offerings by both GM and Ford in 1957 and 1958. A really superlative writeup Bruce! Best regards, Terry

Terry - My sincere apologies for not having acknowledged your last Post of 4 September earlier than now. It is possible I was waiting for other responses! But thank you for your most appreciated words, although it seems I only had half the story. Since your Post Lina and I have been absorbing the wonderful, exhilarating minus temperatures in Northern Finland 300kms north of the Arctic Circle as well as taking in the wonderment of the Aurora Borealis! I have also recently had a visit to my GP with an unexpected life-changing situation. This explains the silence from this correspondent! Incidentally, this Post has been under construction and sitting in my drafts for about four months. Richard with the size of the inner section of the wheel hubs, the part that keeps the wheel and tyre away from the base plate area, I have found that early issues for the 192 have a smaller circumference whereas the later issues have a larger circumference. It is unknown why this occurred, but it could relate to the point of contact with the base area of this and possibly other models that necessitated such a change, adding suspension being a possibility As for the box your 192 in grey and maroon occupies, it may not have anything to do with using old stock as suggested by Jacques, but a simple matter of someone in the past getting his boxes mixed up, or upgrading a box. Let's face it - not everyone is as fussy as I with swapping and upgrading boxes! However, I am very thankful to all who have contributed to this Topic in particular with the information that later issues did in fact have 4-wheel suspension, a fact of which I was previously unaware, as too it would appear were those who provided information to John Ramsay for his British Diecast Model Toys Catalogues over the years. Although his later catalogues mentions the base plate was changed to one lacking the sales number, there has been nothing mentioned pertaining to the model also having suspension. As auction houses usually inspect each model before writing the description, it is mind-boggling that apart from the occasional reference to the model not having a sales number on the base plate, over the past 17 years, those major auction houses including Vectis with whom I have done business since 1994, not one has made a reference to any model having suspension when this feature was well in the future when the 192 was first released. For the 192 to have suspension, that should have alerted the most dedicated and educated cataloguer. About 7 years ago, I went through every price list, leaflet, and catalogue recording each models price, and I cannot believe that somehow, my eyes then were only looking at the sales number and price nothing in-between. Recently I again went through my catalogues and price lists, and I was very surprised to see mention of this added feature in the May 1961 UK catalogue and the January 1963 price leaflet; a fact that I had not noticed previously. What had my eyes been doing?! Fast asleep on all accounts! All other price lists and catalogues made no mention of any of the features which is unusual at the time, as a model having suspension being considered a selling feature. The 1960 catalogue (with no print date but most likely in June as the 960 was available later (it was released in July 1960) mentions that the 192 De Soto Fireflite had windows, with the 258 USA Police Car using the 192 De Soto Casting having windows, seats, 4-wheel suspension and a steering wheel with this model being available later. (It was actually released on 1 October 1960.) Then we come to 1961 and shown below is the 1961 UK Catalogue with a print code of 72521/02 and 7/561/700 with the model having windows and suspension: Followed by the 1962 UK Catalogue with a print code of 72537/2 and 72537/2 7/562/600 for the included price list. There is no picture of the De Soto nor its features included in the price list as were all the other models that had additional features. For 1963, two catalogues were issued for the UK, but both did not have a drawing of the model although the 192 was included in the price list with no features included. Canada had a late issue catalogue printed in October 1963 and it too only listed the 192 with its price but no mention of its features. We now come to the models themselves. The following is the second confirmed example with suspension packaged in a plain red and yellow sided box that was no doubt issued between 1960 and 1961. (See Jacques Post #11 as this is the model itself which I bought from eBay, item Number 192099395675!) It is interesting that Meccano did not include the suspension feature on this style of box. It is possible the artwork for the red and yellow sided boxes was carried out in the months prior to the box style being used at a time when the model did not have suspension. The suspension feature first appeared with the 258 USA Police Car in October 1960. The rivets are of the same dome type. , , , , , Then along came the following model, my latest acquisition, packaged in the plain red and yellow sided box, with suspension and no sales number on the base plate the nicest version in Dove Grey and Muscatel Maroon (the colour names referred to by the Chrysler Corporation) I have received a worthy addition to my collection together with the Seafoam Green and Sahara Tan (again the names given to similar colours by Chrysler) De Soto above, both in the final years of the models production and before the mould had became increasingly corrupted through usage. The rivets with this model are of the recessed type which would indicate an earlier production than the previous model in Seafoam Green and Sahara Tan. , , , , , , There is also the distinct possibility the model shown in my Post #8 above in an identical box with no sales number on the base plate may be the third example. In fact, it is highly probable that most 192 De Soto Fireflites that were packaged in plain red and yellow sided boxes may have had suspension with no sales number on the base plate. What a pity that these details have been omitted from Vectis auction catalogues, at least those since 1994. There have been 21 other examples packaged in this box style that have sold through Vectis and it is possible that all these had suspension and no sales number, although it is also conceivable early issues in this box style may not have had suspension. Unfortunately we will never know for certain, unless a member has an example that he bought new at that time. Another recent purchase through eBay has been the final rendition of the 192 De Soto Fireflite with it arriving in our post office box: , , , With the model packaged in the last style of box, it is also noticeable that the base plate rivets are also dome rather than the original recessed type. It is also immediately evident that the mould was on its last legs as evidenced by the following side views in date order: Above is the left rear side of a model packaged between November 1958 and April 1959. Watch the changes above the windows, the rear quarter window and the loss of the fuel cap with each model below. Model produced in early 1960. At the time the red and yellow plain boxes were starting to be used, the model still retained the fuel filler hatch as shown with the model above, a recent arrival in our household, which is in impeccable condition. The model was also not displaying the casting problems above the left rear door. Model produced towards the end of 1960 and into 1961 Then as production continued with the red and yellow sided plain boxes until this box style was deleted casting problems had started to occur above the rear door, and like the 193 Rambler Cross Country, the loss of the petrol tank filler hatch as shown with the model above. The casting problem seen on the above model at the start of the fin has been remedied, most likely at the same time the petrol filler hatch was deleted, with a new problem arising with the three-quarter side window which has had a small section filled in. The final rendition above when the box returned to an all-yellow pictorial box clearly showing the extensive problems in the upper off-side rear window area, the remedy action with the start of the fin in line with the back window and the continued deletion of the petrol filler hatch and the filled-in section of the three-quarter rear side window. And then there is the front grille and bonnet/hood and how over time, it showed its age. In one of the early batches, is the following, but please ignore the chips and bumps just compare the casting itself! (Had I known my De Soto would end up appearing on a thing called the Internet, the image recorded by a non-film process, and for posterity, I would have taken better care of it, like, never played with it!) Compare the above being one of the first issues with the following model packaged in the plain red and yellow sided box where the problems were starting to become very much apparent: Until in its final appearance in the yellow pictorial box, the damage to the mould in this area is all too evident: <p align='center'>THE ALL-YELLOW PICTORIAL BOXES <p align='center'> , Pictured here are the first issue pictorial box (top) and the final version (above), apart from the addition of the extra features, the drawing itself shows the heavier outline tracings that indicates the plate on the green side required some attention before it was rejuvenated. So with the De Soto Fireflite Meccano was able to breathe life into the mould from December 1958 until early 1964 and simultaneously as a Police Car between October 1960 to approximately July 1963 a total period of about 8 and a half years of the combined 192/258 production. Considering the condition of the mould towards the end of its life, one wonders what caused the problems as other models, such as the 40d/152 Austin Devon in production for 9 years, 40e/153 Standard Vanguard for 10 years, 182 Porsche 356A Coupe for 7 years all without any apparent problems, as too 140b/156 Rover 75 for 8 years, 40g/159 Morris Oxford also for 8 years, the 191 Dodge Royal Sedan and the 131 Cadillac Eldorado were each in production for 7 years as well as a number of others and I have not noticed if some or all of these suffered from any breakdown of the mould as was the case with the Fireflite but I stand corrected if others have found examples showing the fatigue of these models mould. It has been an interesting journey with the Fireflite, which has certainly enlightened me with its various issues. Hopefully others will be able to add any casting changes they have observed with the 192 De Soto Fireflite to this Topic. Kind regards to you all Bruce H. (150) 2018/0211/1177

Bruce, your addendum to the thread has led me to read the whole thing through again and I now recognise how thorough you and the other contributors have been. I think it behoves those of us who lurk and enjoy without being able to contribute anything, to at least congratulate you on your efforts. Well done and thank you! John

John - It is comments such as yours which are so highly valued and appreciated by any author (and I am writing on behalf of all those authors on this website) who have spent considerable time and effort in not only locating information, but accessing it in a format size acceptable to this website, purely for the enjoyment and possible education of all who collect Dinky Toys, without any thought of some form of financial recompense. Your Post is the 'Icing on the Cake', and I thank you for your time and effort in posting your comments. It makes the entire process mentally rewarding as well as stimulating. Thank you again! Kind regards Bruce H. (150) 20180212/1329/1179

Bruce-I also must add another note of appreciation for your most interesting addendum; you have certainly uncovered so much about this model that was previously undocumented. The history of this particular model is unusual too, with the addition of suspension, and then the subsequent die wear issues. I agree with you also....why did this model experience so much difficulty in that amount of time? Thanks again for another superlative post!

Bruce. Your information with pictures is so much that my computer is shaking when I download your contribution. I had to take the time to read all this. Because it is not my mothers language I has to translate it in Dutch. Indeed you deserve a compliment and response after taking so much time and effort in such articles and I want to do this. It is clear that you are very interested in all the details of this very beautiful model with his history through the time and that is very interesting to read. You have brought a lot of details to light and I find it very interesting how you have visualized the distortion of the model at the end of the production. There are more models that have suffered from that. Compliments and many thanks for your contributions. Keep rolling these contributions. Jan Oldenhuis, 14-2-2018

Jan O., Thank you so much for your very kind and appreciated words, especially hearing how your computer shakes each time you download one of my contributions! When I wrote to John, Post #17 above, I had you in my thoughts as you also manage, despite English not being your Mother Tongue, to provide a very educational Post on a number of new Topics. I think you deserve a very special award as it must be a veritable nightmare to write in a foreign language and succeed! Top marks to you with your wonderful, educational contributions. I am writing in my own language and manage to often write something that may have a double meaning or may be easy for me to read but a darn nightmare for Non-English speaking folk. I too think the 192 DeSoto Fireflite was a wonderful model, but I learned a lot in the course of my research, thanks to others who knew a little more than me! It must have been my thoughts on the 192 that provided me with the 'push' to take it back to its birth-place in 2005, and with it becoming my faithful 'lucky charm' ever since I climbed on board an aircraft, a total of 122 times since then. Superstitious? Not me!! However, I am so delighted to have added two impeccable examples of this model in the later red and yellow sided boxes to my 'always retain' collection as companions to my childhood example in slight playworn condition. Thanks to Mr Google, I am translating this Post into Dutch. Jan O., Heel erg bedankt voor je vriendelijke en gewaardeerde woorden, vooral als je hoort hoe je computer schudt telkens wanneer je een van mijn bijdragen downloadt! Toen ik schreef aan John, Post # 17 hierboven, had ik je in mijn gedachten omdat je het, ondanks het feit dat het Engels niet je moedertaal is, ook mogelijk maakt om een zeer leerzame post over een aantal nieuwe onderwerpen te geven. Ik vind dat je een heel speciale prijs verdient, want het moet een ware nachtmerrie zijn om in een vreemde taal te schrijven en te slagen! Toppunten voor u met uw prachtige, educatieve bijdragen. Ik schrijf in mijn eigen taal en slaag erin om vaak iets te schrijven dat een dubbele betekenis kan hebben of dat ik gemakkelijk kan lezen, maar een verdrietige nachtmerrie voor niet-Engelssprekende mensen. Ik denk ook dat de 192 DeSoto Fireflite een prachtig model was, maar ik heb veel geleerd in de loop van mijn onderzoek, dankzij anderen die iets meer wisten dan ik! Het moeten mijn gedachten zijn geweest over de 192 die me de 'push' gaf om hem terug te brengen naar zijn geboorteplaats in 2005, en daarmee werd ik mijn gelovige 'gelukzaligheid' sinds ik aan boord van een vliegtuig klom, een totaal van 122 keer sindsdien. Bijgelovig? Niet ik!! Ik ben echter zo opgetogen dat ik twee onberispelijke voorbeelden van dit model in de latere rode en gele dubbelzijdige boxen heb toegevoegd aan mijn 'always retain' -collectie als metgezellen van mijn jeugd bijvoorbeeld in een lichte, versleten staat. Dank aan meneer Google, ik vertaal deze post naar het Nederlands. Vriendelijke groeten I hope Mr Google provided an excellent translation as I have no idea what he wrote!!! Kind regards Bruce H. (150) 20181802/1640/1183

Bruce, thank you for your kind words and thank you for translating into Dutch. Mr. Google is our best friend. Translating from English to Dutch is very easy. The right button of the mouse gives that menu to translate. But to translate Dutch into English with Mr. Google I get sometimes a strange translation that I have to correct myself to make it understandable and that cost me some more time, especially when it comes to the small details, but I like to do it. Kind regards, Jan O.