571 and 971 Coles Mobile Crane (1949-66)

Hello dear friends, a question about the Coles Mobile Crane export models, the ones that went from Liverpool into France in circa 1951. A photo below of both a regular one, with regular contemporary box and (right) such a French import, with the highly unusual French box, in which it was sold in the French shops. In Ramsay's this French import is said to date from the period 1951- 1957. Others (as also stated in the Dulin collection book) suggest that is was imported and packed like this in 1951 only. Indeed, the box is rather scarce, so 1951-1957 seems to be too long to me. If 1951 only is true, I cannot explain the grooved hubs (starting in the second half of 1952) of both my example and the example once owned by Grard Dulin. There seems to be no contemporary documentation (factory archives, catalogue etc.) about this date. What then is the evidence anyway for putting it on 1951 and or 1951-1957? Could someone give me a factual or plausible answer, please?Another request of mine, relating to this model, is the little explanatory sheet of paper, which is lacking with my example. Could someone provide the text, or even a reproduction of that leaflet?Kind regards, Jan Werner

Trawling the archive I found this vintage post that interests me. Here are some points that may help you with your quest. (i) The Dulin book I am sadly unfamiliar with, it would be worth asking him (if possible) where he collected this info. Ramsey's info on French imports & exports seems somewhat lacking, according to my Ramsey's it says you can buy a pre-war 29dz Renault TN4 for only 80 90 pounds (I would take one at that quite happily!). A friend of mine benefited from this erroneous Ramsey's entry a few years ago, he purchased a 29d (post war) TN4 in excellent+ all original & very presentable condition for 32 pounds, but I am going off topic here! (ii) How did you purchase your example, was it from the original owner or had it passed through many hands previously? Is the Grard Dulin example identical in all ways? Shades, trim application, tyres etc, if yes then that would likely point towards a short run. We must also consider if this toy is original to the box. Provenance is key here. (iii) If grooved hubs only existed after the second half of 1952 then this can not date from 1951. I dont know if it has this detail as I have not seen this version before in hand but by any chance does it have any stamp in the lid or on the base of the box collaborating the dates that you mention? As Im sure that you already know the 571 (in England) was produced 1949 1954 & renumbered 971 from 1954 1964, as yours is a 571 I feel we can narrow it down to the second half of 1952 till 1954 (if the toy is the original one for the box). (iv) Hopefully bringing this back up to the fore will help you get that copy of the instructions that you desire Those are both superb examples, they are not so easy to find in such clean & original condition, I should know as I have been looking. Kind regards, Stfan

At last, thank you Stfan, this is the level of discussion I'd love to see here! I will check and come back later! Best regards, Jan

Jan Is this the leaflet you are looking for: It is 8.7cm x 6.2cm Dave

A quick reply: Thanks Dave, no this is not the one I mean. It is in French and I can read with some effort 'Grue Roulante' as a header. Also, the hubs are grooved, although I firmly believe to know that grooved hubs were introduced not earlier than mid-1952, whereas the comment in English reads: 'Made in England & imported into France in a special box in 1951'. Jacques D, could you join into this discussion? Regards, Jan

Its late here and time for bed but I am glad to have started a little more dialogue regarding this toy, shame that the French Meccano magazines dont cover this epoch. meccrl.free.fr/mmf/ Stfan

I made a scan detail from the book, a picture that says more than words. I am almost sure that the former owner was not the first owner, and of course therefore I am always sceptic about provenance and the compatibility of box and model inside. Moreover, the presumed year 1951 does not coincide with the grooved hubs. It is obvious that the axle ends are very shiny, both on my example and Dulin's, which is an early feature and gives me more confidence in the correct match of model and box. If so, the stated year of availabilty OR my dating of the grooved hubs is not correct. Perhaps the moment of actual availability in France was slightly later than 1951 and the grooved hubs introduction took place slightly earlier than my experience says. In that case the match is correct. Anyway, is a very remarkable and attractive box with that nice picture on top. And in very fine condition. Two more detailed pictures of my box: By the way, the hubs on the picture are ridged, not the grooved Supertoys type. This happens more often with some Supertoys which were introduced in this period. Regards, Jan

Hello Jan, So I am guessing that this box has no rubber date stamps anywhere throughout the box? I have noticed from the scan & your photo that the Dulin example has (what I always assumed were earlier) golden coloured winder handles whereas yours appears to have the silver ones. I also noticed that the Dulin example has a gloss dark blue paper wrap around the box and yours is a satin mid blue so we have at least two productions runs here. I always thought that the darker blue was earlier which in turn would sit well with the winder variations though I know with Dinky not everything is so black & white. See another here (Australia Carters - Vectis): Identical in every way to the Dulin one. www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/item/137852...ow-and-black-in-rar/ Lastly, who is to say that these dont indeed exist with ridged hubs, far less boxes survive than toys, after all its just a bit of cardboard made to get it from the factory shop home. It may well have been produced from 1951, just we didnt come across one yet. I would like to find one for my collection, thanks for sharing. Kind regards, Stfan

Thanks for sharing your considerations on this! By the way, indeed there is a stamp underneath the box, but it so very faint that it is unreadable! Regards, Jan

Hi all, Jan wanted me to come on on this discussion. I have more time available as I have finished my second book, it is now been transfered to the printer via the net and the copies should be delivered to me before Nov. 20th. I can confirm that some 571 cranes were imported into France in 1951 only as stated on page 6 of the 1952 trade catalogue. Quote : Les articles spciaux d'importation : 14C - 27 AC - 561 - 562 - 571 que nous avions pu vous fournir l'anne dernire ne seront vraisemblablement pas livrables cette anne, car nous ne pouvons pas obtenir les licences d'importation indispensables. As far as I know the ridged hubs were replaced by the groved ones in 1952. As the mobile cranes imported into France were on sale in 1951, they must have been made in 1950 before any groved hubs were made. Jan's superb box is pre May 1951 as at this date the marque Supertoys was replaced by Dinky Toys on all English models. The instructions posted by Dave are the home ones. For export, a larger sheet (code 17-151-100) was printed in English and French on one side and in Spanish, Dutch, or German on the other. May I remind that the tools for this model were not made by Meccano Ltd. they have been subcontracted to Thomas Keating of Billingshurst and I have been very lucky to meet by accident two of the guys who made those tools. I hope that I have answered everybodys questions, if not, please ask. Jacques.

Hello Jacques, thanks for your input. So owing to the information in a French trade catalogue are we safe to assume that indeed all three examples shown here are not original to their boxes and have been swapped over at some time in the last 60+ years? Or on the other hand (owing to the physical evidence) perhaps that maybe the import license issue was overcome and some were indeed imported & sold post 1952? I know you mention the details of the box branding but what is to say they didnt use old stock labels (why undertake a costly redesign for a toy that has no future in France?). I hate to make suppositions and theories but owing to the fact we have three examples with grooved hubs seemingly showing a pattern with box colour, winder colour & tyre colour it is something that I feel cant be ignored, what a crying shame the date is illegible on Jans magnificent example. Kind regards, Stfan

For anyone who is able to identify the date, as stamped underneath! Kind regards, Jan